- Joined
- Apr 1, 2017
- Posts
- 55
A concept that I find interesting is that of having a second region in your game, whether a new one altogether or revisiting a past one like in GSCHGSS. It seems like it's a pretty popular feature, so I figure it's worth discussing, right? What did you enjoy about revisiting Kanto? What could be done better? Outside of GSCHGSS and instead moving forward, what advice do you have for second regions in fangames?
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So yeah, what does everyone else think about second regions? Any novel ideas worth sharing? Ways to distinguish from your main region? (And ways to keep it from stepping on your main region's toes?)
Edit: Horizontal rules break things now, so I just caught that part of this was invisible and replaced it with a few hyphens!
Regarding Kanto specifically:
To be honest, contrary to what seems like the popular opinion, I've actually never thought that revisiting Kanto in GSCHGSS was worth the trouble or at all interesting or fun - it was a decent way to pander to nostalgia once, but now everyone is begging for second regions to "come back," and I felt the main quality of the games actually dropped significantly for including Kanto.
First of all, even the main adventure was made awkward by the level curve that had to account for a second region. But at the same time, the revisited Kanto itself was also pretty heavily watered down (especially in GSC, though HGSS sort of fixed this by adding back places like Cerulean Cave, the Seafoam Islands and Viridian Forest), and there was nothing much to do in Kanto other than the second revival of Team Rocket (which was pretty much intended as a joke, what with being led by a single Rocket grunt, said Rocket grunt being a caricature with a funny accent, and comprising a single fetch quest no bigger than any individual encounter with Team Rocket during the main story) and the badge quest.
And then the badge quest itself was cluttered because, aside from Viridian having to be last, it was all dumped on players at once with no order. Which brings me to my main issue: although it seems like Kanto was trying to be open-world, and as nice as it is when games avoid linearity and try to be open world, the reason I didn't like Kanto in GSCHGSS is because it was combined with an utter lack of story and when you're already past the point of getting any progression. The best parts of open-world adventures are that, even when you can go anywhere you want, you're still growing, gaining access to new tools (like moves, HMs or evolutions), and getting more to do, like unlocking sidequests; Kanto was kept from being interesting because you had already done all of this in Johto, so it was basically repeating everything you'd already done but without any of the growth or self-improvement that makes Pokémon games and raising teams so great.
So basically, I don't think Kanto is how you should do it if you're adding a second region at all. While I'm sure an "open-world" concept would work great for a Pokémon game in the hands of someone who wants to try it, the fact that Kanto was postgame kept it from pulling it off well at all and made it all more of an afterthought than a new adventure.
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Regarding second regions in general:
With all of that said, I really don't think the idea of a second region is intrinsically terrible, and I'm interested in exploring other ways of doing it.
As I said, by the time you reach the postgame, you're done with evolving, gaining HMs/ways of unlocking progression, learning new moves and so on - you're pretty much done growing for all that standard leveling is going to get you. A spin on a second region that I think might be neat, then, is gradual access to all of the "competitive hub" stuff that everyone loves in postgame. Just like the main region might be dedicated to Gyms or Trials, the second region would have landmarks/points of interest focused on making your team worthy of competitive play - a Route with a Day Care, access to Hyper Training and Bottle Caps (preferably without a level 100 requirement), a town that acts as a convenient hub for EV training, various move tutors, and most importantly, scatter Battle Frontier facilities instead of a second set of Gyms or Trials! You should also likely have a good place to level-grind efficiently later on (like the Black Tower/White Treehollow), but don't make NPCs depend on players using it (probably make it one of the last areas you get). And the items you find along Routes and deep within dungeons could be competitive items like Life Orbs, Power Items and Air Balloons instead of an onslaught of X-Items and Potions!
The idea is that, if you're even in the postgame, your goal is probably not to raise an in-game team, but a competitive or Frontier-based team; Kanto opted to repeat Gyms even though you're already past the point of caring about levels or Badges (with Red being a secret bonus boss, I don't believe you were even given any reason to collect Kanto's Badges at all - you already beat the League), but I feel it would make more sense if, just like the main region is based on training in levels, the second region was based on competitive training instead, preparing you effectively for Battle Facilities and having you face them in a guided fashion similar to the progression of Gyms.
If you're doing a second region, I'd love to see something like this - with a focus on a different of team growth - a lot more than just another eight-Gyms-and-a-League, since we've already done that and our team is maxed out in that sense!
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I should point out that I'm personally not doing a second region at all, and I don't think you should ever think about a second region before your main one is all done. This kind of ties into the ongoing discussion of how postgame in fangames generally goes relatively unused and people care a lot less about the postgame of fangames than the main games. Honestly, though, even though I'm not actually doing it, I'm really interested in what everyone thinks! This is a discussion that comes up a lot in the fandom, so I kinda just want to know what everyone here thinks about it and how it can be done other than simply tacking on a second region that plays the same as the first (which is what is usually suggested).
To be honest, contrary to what seems like the popular opinion, I've actually never thought that revisiting Kanto in GSCHGSS was worth the trouble or at all interesting or fun - it was a decent way to pander to nostalgia once, but now everyone is begging for second regions to "come back," and I felt the main quality of the games actually dropped significantly for including Kanto.
First of all, even the main adventure was made awkward by the level curve that had to account for a second region. But at the same time, the revisited Kanto itself was also pretty heavily watered down (especially in GSC, though HGSS sort of fixed this by adding back places like Cerulean Cave, the Seafoam Islands and Viridian Forest), and there was nothing much to do in Kanto other than the second revival of Team Rocket (which was pretty much intended as a joke, what with being led by a single Rocket grunt, said Rocket grunt being a caricature with a funny accent, and comprising a single fetch quest no bigger than any individual encounter with Team Rocket during the main story) and the badge quest.
And then the badge quest itself was cluttered because, aside from Viridian having to be last, it was all dumped on players at once with no order. Which brings me to my main issue: although it seems like Kanto was trying to be open-world, and as nice as it is when games avoid linearity and try to be open world, the reason I didn't like Kanto in GSCHGSS is because it was combined with an utter lack of story and when you're already past the point of getting any progression. The best parts of open-world adventures are that, even when you can go anywhere you want, you're still growing, gaining access to new tools (like moves, HMs or evolutions), and getting more to do, like unlocking sidequests; Kanto was kept from being interesting because you had already done all of this in Johto, so it was basically repeating everything you'd already done but without any of the growth or self-improvement that makes Pokémon games and raising teams so great.
So basically, I don't think Kanto is how you should do it if you're adding a second region at all. While I'm sure an "open-world" concept would work great for a Pokémon game in the hands of someone who wants to try it, the fact that Kanto was postgame kept it from pulling it off well at all and made it all more of an afterthought than a new adventure.
-----
Regarding second regions in general:
With all of that said, I really don't think the idea of a second region is intrinsically terrible, and I'm interested in exploring other ways of doing it.
As I said, by the time you reach the postgame, you're done with evolving, gaining HMs/ways of unlocking progression, learning new moves and so on - you're pretty much done growing for all that standard leveling is going to get you. A spin on a second region that I think might be neat, then, is gradual access to all of the "competitive hub" stuff that everyone loves in postgame. Just like the main region might be dedicated to Gyms or Trials, the second region would have landmarks/points of interest focused on making your team worthy of competitive play - a Route with a Day Care, access to Hyper Training and Bottle Caps (preferably without a level 100 requirement), a town that acts as a convenient hub for EV training, various move tutors, and most importantly, scatter Battle Frontier facilities instead of a second set of Gyms or Trials! You should also likely have a good place to level-grind efficiently later on (like the Black Tower/White Treehollow), but don't make NPCs depend on players using it (probably make it one of the last areas you get). And the items you find along Routes and deep within dungeons could be competitive items like Life Orbs, Power Items and Air Balloons instead of an onslaught of X-Items and Potions!
The idea is that, if you're even in the postgame, your goal is probably not to raise an in-game team, but a competitive or Frontier-based team; Kanto opted to repeat Gyms even though you're already past the point of caring about levels or Badges (with Red being a secret bonus boss, I don't believe you were even given any reason to collect Kanto's Badges at all - you already beat the League), but I feel it would make more sense if, just like the main region is based on training in levels, the second region was based on competitive training instead, preparing you effectively for Battle Facilities and having you face them in a guided fashion similar to the progression of Gyms.
If you're doing a second region, I'd love to see something like this - with a focus on a different of team growth - a lot more than just another eight-Gyms-and-a-League, since we've already done that and our team is maxed out in that sense!
-----
I should point out that I'm personally not doing a second region at all, and I don't think you should ever think about a second region before your main one is all done. This kind of ties into the ongoing discussion of how postgame in fangames generally goes relatively unused and people care a lot less about the postgame of fangames than the main games. Honestly, though, even though I'm not actually doing it, I'm really interested in what everyone thinks! This is a discussion that comes up a lot in the fandom, so I kinda just want to know what everyone here thinks about it and how it can be done other than simply tacking on a second region that plays the same as the first (which is what is usually suggested).
-----
So yeah, what does everyone else think about second regions? Any novel ideas worth sharing? Ways to distinguish from your main region? (And ways to keep it from stepping on your main region's toes?)
Edit: Horizontal rules break things now, so I just caught that part of this was invisible and replaced it with a few hyphens!
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