Gyms

[Jayrodd]

A test of strength, a test of knowledge, anything that sets up a challenge for you to prove your worth to get into the pokemon league. Gyms have been a staple since day one, and only recently have we seen them start to deviate in main series games. They provide a lot for the player experience, roadblocks that are your main goal on your journey, and it's one of the biggest things that keep us coming back.

• Discuss how the theme of a gym, it's leader, and the gym itself interplay to create a positive player experience
• Show how these landmarks can be used both for narrative and progression points in a game
• Brainstorm new gym ideas you would like to see attempted in future games

 

[Evan]

Gyms! Let's talk about gyms.

To me there are few things more iconic in a mainline Pokemon game than gyms. Even when they removed gyms they still had something that resembled Pokemon Gyms. I personally think Gyms and Gym Leaders are excellent boss characters that feel in-line with the Pokemon world that has been created, and are great checkpoints and road-blocks to make sure you've trained up a certain amount before you can continue your journey.

Not only that, but gym leaders are also very often some of the best and most memorable characters of a Pokemon game. I think the earlier Pokemon games had a lot more in terms of gym difficulty that developed a sort of crowdsourced lore--such as Whitney and her Miltank, or Claire's Kingdra. They allow people to not only connect with the game and feel pride when they defeat these leaders, but it can also create a shared experience that people can bond over.

 

[Shgeldz]

I really enjoyed how they fleshed out the gym leaders in Gen 5, and gave them a part in the story. I also think that if we're counting trials as essentially gyms, then the trial leaders were also the most fleshed out bosses in any game.

In watching and playing PEG, the most memorable moments were often the gym battles. People complained that they were too hard, and we did end up nerfing Regina a bit, but I urge you to watch the battle we had with her in our dev commentary.

I think this kind of "push it and leave it all on the field" is something that you only really get in gym battles in a Pokémon game. In most cases, you'd be fine losing to a trainer/blacking out and just running back, but for a gym, you know beating it is a big step in the story and there's an impetus to push forward. I think that was also replicated in totem Pokémon. I think not having gyms or checkpoint-esque bosses takes that type of battle feeling away from Pokémon. Now to wait for @Gav to disagree.

+1 to Whitney's Miltank, even if it was unfair.

 

[Jester Blue]

One of my favorite things about gyms, and one that I felt gen 7 was sorely lacking (Kiawe's trial was fun though), was Gym Puzzles. Not only were there some tough trainers, followed by a Gym Leader, but there was a puzzle that made you think, even if you were overleveled or had a heavy type advantage - I don't care if you walk into Fortree gym with a Manectric and an Aggron, you're going to be there for a minute turning those 'L's about. Pastoria's gym with the changing water levels was also great IMO.
I don't remember having much trouble with Whitney's Miltank, to be honest. I must have been one of the lucky ones. But +1 the sentiment - hard gyms are the most memorable.
One thing I would like to see more of is gyms that aren't just monotype. Insurgence does that well - Orion's opening Drought, combined with moves the player just doesn't have at that point, makes for a brutal battle already. Add on top of that the two complimentary types - ground and water beat Fire, but are weak to Grass, and only Fire resists both but is NVE against Fire. Only one type beats the gym, as opposed to every type that beats the gym type, which is usually more than one.

 

[Majestic Senzu]

• Discuss how the theme of a gym, it's leader, and the gym itself interplay to create a positive player experience

• Show how these landmarks can be used both for narrative and progression points in a game

• Brainstorm new gym ideas you would like to see attempted in future games

To me, the gyms provide a nice way to learn type match-ups. For example, when I was really young and I played my first Pokémon game (Diamond), I had so much trouble with Roark (1st gym). Guess why? Yep, I chose Chimchar. It wasn't until Chimchar evolved and learned Mach Punch that I whooped Roark. Slowly but surely, I learned that: Fire is weak to Rock and Fighting beats Rock. Obviously, Crasher Wake (4th gym) was an issue, since I only used Infernape. Anyways, point is: the gyms assist in learning the "complex" type match-ups. Also, you may find new Pokémon to utilize that you never thought to use before. Machop is obtainable before the 1st gym in D/P, and if I had used one, my gym time with Roark would have been MUCH easier.
That said, I enjoy gyms that break the monotype rule, such as Blue's gym battle in G/S/C/HG/SS. I would like to see gyms based on multiple types or even specific metagame teams. The possibilities are endless: rain teams, stall teams, dualtype teams.

The gyms also provide a concrete sense of accomplishment and progression. There are other ways to establish progression, but gym leaders mark a specific point in the game. For example:
"How far did you get in Pokémon Leaf Green?"
"I just beat the 4th gym leader Erika."
"Oh, so did you beat Team Rocket at the Game Corner yet?"
Boom. You and your friends know exactly where you are in the game.

Also, gym puzzles are awesome. Well, most of them anyway (looking at you, Lt. Surge).

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I personally disagree with the idea that gyms should teach type matchups. Type mechanics are a pretty basic thing that can be covered briefly in the start of the game (if it's even necessary-fangame players are more likely to be experienced with them), while gyms are a mechanic that lasts almost the entire game. Type matchups could be taught much more easily through a trainer's school with a variety of types, or an NPC that would explain them (like Cheren in BW2). They also don't really teach you the type's property as much as they teach how to deal with a type. When fighting Jasmine in Crystal, for example, I didn't learn a dang thing about all of Steel's resistances-I just learned that Fire-type moves were super effective, and used that the entire match. It's still a great lesson, but still not something hard to learn.

I'm slightly more fond of gyms with a "theme" of Pokemon (like Uranium's second, third, and 6-8th gyms), because it's a more interesting way to look at Pokemon (I can sort through my dex to see all the Pokemon of one type, but what about all the Pokemon associated with the sun and moon?). But nobody ever said that you can't do that with a monotype team, either-just look at Regina's gym in Ethereal Gates! Even though her type specialty of Normal is a hard concept to work into a gym design, rather than just focusing on the type, her gym is a massive barn that reflects the environment of the Pokemon inside! (and the barn rafters where you battle Regina look absolutely stunning-but what else would you expect from Ethereal gates?) And while a monotype team might be harder to make a challenging team with, it also has its perks-players are likely to bring a type super effective against them, so you can keep a couple moves for coverage! (especially useful for types like Fire and Dark, where all types super effective against them have a shared weakness) And the inevitable +1 for Whitney's Miltank-Rollout was so simple, but so stupidly hard, especially for those that had been cruising with their Cyndaquil/Quilava until then.


(Also-for all that is holy, please, please don't make your first gym "straight line, two trainers, gym leader", especially if they're a Normal/Rock type specialist. It's been done too many times!)

 

[Radical Raptr]

The way I always saw Gyms and the idea of defeating each gym was under the unofficial/official name: The Gym Challenge. Each Gym leader was more than a powerful trainer to defeat, but a skilled trainer meant to test and determine the player's skill.
Pokemon Origins did a really incredible job when Brock was shown to adjust his team based on Red's skill, and thats a key aspect I feel a lot of games miss out on and would be a really cool thing to explore.

The way I saw Gym Leaders, they were essentially the ones who ran the town they resided in, or took care of it - public servants who were dedicated to keeping the streets safe, preserving the natural pokemon habitats on surrounding routes, and testing the skill of trainer's hoping to compete against the elite 4.

What I would like to see is Gym Leaders who aren't tethered to a building, or follow the generic "I have x poekmon of x type, try and beat me" - instead, it would be cool to have a Gym leader at the beginning of a forest lamenting, and when you approach him he talks about how things are going so wrong, and he recruits you to help deal with either troubling trainers ruining the habitat or pokemon who are disturbing nests or something along those lines, and then, after seeing you in action, he asks for a battle, wagering a badge if you can defeat him; perhaps your skill peeked his interest or rekindled a fighting spirit. Or what if instead of fighting through a bunch of trainers to reach the gym leader, it wasn't even that at all? what if the gym challenge for that gym was a Pokemon contest? or a fishing contest?

Also, why limit gyms to types, when themes are much cooler? like a farm theme with mareep, taurous, and buneary? Themes are a great change of pace and allow for much better team combos and competitive advantages over types.

 

[manta]

I've seen enough Gyms that I think it's time more people started changing up the formula. I know they're meant to be an integral part of Pokémon, but it'd do the game some good to deviate from the norm more. Sun and Moon took a step in the right direction with their trials, but that doesn't mean you should just put trials in your game instead. What about having 8 special Poké Balls to collect? Or even ditching this type of objective entirely? In my old game Pokémon Wisteria, Gyms did not exist. Instead, there was a tournament with multiple rounds. I know that Legends of the Arena did something similar, and that was exciting too.

But if you really want to stick to Gyms, then make them a little different. Focus on a theme instead of a type, maybe? Or you could have a travelling Gym Leader who you have to track down to fight and earn their Badge.

 

[Evan]

As much as I see the calling for making gyms "different" like with a theme or whatever (the traveling leader idea is pretty cool), I don't think that's mandatory to do in a fangame. I think the gym system is something players are very comfortable with, and something that drives their understanding of the progression of the game. I see nothing wrong with making classical type-based gym challenges to keep the player on track while perhaps making other parts of your game more unique and interesting.

I think any kind of challenge is neat to have in a game, but I don't think not having gyms or having 'different' gyms is superior to what is one of the huge pillars of a Pokemon game. I think it's up to the developer to make the distinction as to what they want to have in their game. What I will say is, to people who want to try something different in lieu of gyms, that it would make sense for a 'new' mechanic to really be the centerpiece of the game, like the Island Trials were in Sun/Moon.

 

[Aki]

Ohhh gyms, I just don't know how to feel about them. As a dev I'm like yeah, mandatory gym battles are a great mechanic to make sure the player is periodically tested and isn't rushing through to new areas before they're ready; it's a tried-and-true method of defeating a boss at the end of the level and earning a new ability/powerup (Hms/ field moves) to use in the next level! On the other hand as a player I'm like...just stop roadblocking me with gyms I don't wanna do already.

(Also-for all that is holy, please, please don't make your first gym "straight line, two trainers, gym leader", especially if they're a Normal/Rock type specialist. It's been done too many times!)

On another note, this is something I've been thinking about too. Pokemon games really don't have complex puzzles most of the time. Like, a majority of gym puzzles can be watered down to:*

1) A simple maze, but there's trainers in it that you probably can't avoid.(Cerulean, Celadon, Viridian, Goldenrod, Blackthorn, Fortree, Mossdeep, Hearthome, Castelia, Nimbasa, Mistralton, Humilau, Santalune, Cyllage, Coumarine,) A good number of these really do have interesting gimmicks and visuals, but ultimately there's only 1 path to the gym leader. There's also variations like the maze being dark/invisible (Fuchsia, Ecruteak, Dewford, ) or next on my list:

2) Letting you bypass trainers completely if you navigate correctly through the "maze" or there's no puzzle/maze at all (Pewter, Violet, Olivine, Rustboro, Petalburg, Oreburgh, Aspertia, Virbank, )

3) Have to press 2-3 buttons/switches to remove a roadblock, but there's trainers in the way (Azalea, Cianwood, Mauville, Eterna, Veilstone, Pastoria, Sunyshore, Nacrene, Opelucid, Shalour, Snowbelle)

4) Random chance or trial and error to find your way through to the leader (Vermilion, Saffron, Lavaridge, Laverre)

5) Ice puzzle, which I personally count as more complex because movement is changed on top of having to solve a puzzle (Mahogany, Snowpoint, Icirrus, )

Personally I like gyms that use puzzles more creatively, like the above ice gyms. Or challenges like Cinnabar/Striaton/Lumiose's quizzes, or Sootopolis's cracked ice, which instead of prolonging a puzzle with trainer battles, reward a clever player by letting them bypass battles. There's also gyms like Canalave/Driftveil which aren't too far from the "maze with mandatory trainers" formula, but at least offer some variety/choice of a more complex maze.

*Disclaimer: I have no idea what's going on in the Anistar Gym.:cold_sweat: