References and Memes in Fan Games

[Fontbane]

I had a thread about this in the old RC, but I feel like it's still relevant to discuss.

How far can you go out of your way to make a reference before it stops being worth it? I see a lot of fangames with memes and pop culture references, even in their Fakemon. An example would be GigaGoomy from Pokémon Insurgence. But, how much is too far? Is it worth it to restrict yourself to a certain number of Fakemon so the number of Fakemon you introduce is a reference to something IRL? Is putting Ditto on an earlier route so it can be #69 in the Regional Pokédex worth it? Would putting pop culture icons or references to real world events take from the immersion in the game?
What do you think about references in fangames? Do they give the game a basis in reality, add a "huh, cool" factor, or do they go too far?

 

[Evan]

References are fun! They give a little nod to the player, and it's a little shared inside joke between people in the "real world" that perhaps people in the "game world" wouldn't get. When done right it can serve as a little treat for the player!

Here's the important thing, though. Depending on the level of 'integrity' you want your game to have (for instance, Pokemon Meat can ignore this entirely) the reference needs to make sense. You can have a character on a computer talking about how nobody likes their art, turns to you and says "you know, it really Feels Bad, Man" and that's a meme/reference that still fits within the game world. However, if you walk up to someone and they say "owo here come dat boi" that's when things begin to unravel a bit.

Also it's important to note that "memes" and "references" make it easy to date your game. For instance, if I made a "Hotline Bling" reference in a game, that would really only be relevant for late 2015. People today wouldn't find that as hilarious. Memes come and go QUICKLY, so unless you want your game (or that portion of your game) to be a part of that meme, it helps to make the reference "time proof" (and by that I mean, even if people wouldn't get the meme, it wouldn't stop their experience from being a good one).

Point is, plop in references but be mindful of what they add to the experience. Tread lightly if you're trying to maintain a level of 'officialness'.

 

[Fontbane]

Also it's important to note that "memes" and "references" make it easy to date your game. For instance, if I made a "Hotline Bling" reference in a game, that would really only be relevant for late 2015. People today wouldn't find that as hilarious. Memes come and go QUICKLY, so unless you want your game (or that portion of your game) to be a part of that meme, it helps to make the reference "time proof" (and by that I mean, even if people wouldn't get the meme, it wouldn't stop their experience from being a good one).

Fun fact, the official games had memes in them too! I'm sure everyone remembers how some of the Psychics in X/Y had references like "my body is ready" and "over 9000", and in Gen 4, there were a lot of references in the dialogue (I'm sure you could find a list somewhere). But these memes fit, like you said, so while it's funny for those who get it, it doesn't detract from anything for those who don't, or those who play after the game is dated. All of that, however, was in dialogue.

 

[doof]

I, for one, don't really mind much seeing an occasional reference or meme here and there, but if they're done all over the place it could really ruin the immersion of the game. Like, having one NPC out of a hundred make a meme joke is fine, but if eighty out of a hundred did, then it might be a little bit much. So, if uses sparingly, I think there's no issue.

However, I think the creativity of the reference/meme is also important. If someone just slaps a meme in (For example, having a trainer say "your power level must be over nine-thousand" after losing) then it'll probably fall flat and end up a little underwhelming. But if someone puts a little thought into it, and finds an interesting or slightly more in-depth way to make a joke (such as having a musician that says "I've been trying new instruments all day!" when you talk to them and having a jar of mayonnaise on a table nearby with other instruments) then it might go over well, or at the very least, good enough.

In summary, in my opinion at least, having some memes/references is perfectly fine. After all, if you're making a game, you want to have a little fun here and there. But put thought and effort into them. Make the player look around/think about it to get it. Don't just beat them over the head with it.

 

[Dragonite]

I don't remember 100% what I wrote in this thread on the old forum but it was something along the lines of "as long as it doesn't significantly interfere with more important things like, I dunno, plot." Here's a fancy checklist.

- Does the meme or reference still make sense in English if the player has no knowledge of what you're alluding to?
- Does the player's understanding of unrelated things (like, I dunno, plot or a game mechanic) hinge on understanding the meme or reference?
- Are you going to look back at this in three years and go "boy, I can't believe I used to find that funny?" (this is the big one)
- I swear to god, sex jokes do nothing but suggest to your audience that your brain stopped developing at the age of about twelve years old.

Here was the example I used last time.

It's hidden away in the Options menu, and if a hundred people play the game maybe five people at maximum will see it and maybe get the joke. It doesn't pop up in the player's face when they don't want it to (unless they have a bizarre infatuation with the Options menu[/s] and it's probably not going to affect the player's understanding of what the setting does. If/when "gotta go fast" fades into obscurity the line might not be as funny but it'll still make sense in literal English.

Other instances that might pass the test include painting a black-and-white "2" on the back of some random NPC's tee shirt or a rectangular computer tower with a glowing red circle in the lair of the evil team who says "I can't let you do that" when [some condition].

For no particular reason the guideline I've set myself is one or two stupid or silly things per hundred pieces of writing - like, I've got probably seventy or eighty pieces of flavor text in the Pause menu so far and auto run = true is the only one that refers to anything and since most of you are probably thinking of NPCs, that comes to a small handful in Castelia City or probably one meme in all of the minor towns in Johto put together.

Edit: Ha, Sparta came up with the one in a hundred estimate, too.

for instance, Pokemon Meat can ignore this entirely

Dammit, you beat me to the punch (although I was going to cite Meme Run) :(

 

[BIGJRA]

Like you guys are saying, references are a good way at bringing the player into the game but I feel like limiting them to say, memes, kinda cheapens the experience a little bit. There's so much media from like, a lot of history, so really as long as you aren't using Snakewood-levels of needing to understand the references to progress then I think it works. Honestly I feel like whenever I've seen a plot-crucial character saying some sort of reference it detracts from them in a strange way -- feels almost as if their characteristics don't matter compared to the meme inserted.

Though I've never worked on a game before, I get the sense populating worlds could be pretty boring without some forms of references, so referencing the above point, little subtle things like a defeat text in Reborn saying "all in all you're not just another brick in the wall" (referencing Pink Floyd's song) are a good way to both make some players go "Ooh I know this one" and make some players just say "huh" and keep moving, since it's not that far off to assume someone would say something like that regardless of the reference. Two paragraphs of weird rambling later I think that's the central point I was going for -- make them insignificant enough that they won't mess up the overall themes of the game and allow for players to either get them or not think much about them.

 

[manta]

I don't tend to like references/memes, especially if they're used a LOT. To me, it makes me believe that you can't think up proper dialogue. I like humour in games, but you don't need to rely on memes to do it. I'd recommend against adding stuff that's going to get dated FAST, so if anything, don't put memes in, put references. (It makes the game seem somewhat childish if you use memes for dialogue unironically...)

 

[Dawn Bronze]

I think it's okay to throw in a few memes and references here and there. As long as they aren't too over the top or in your face, I can't really see a down side. A good example of this is actually within the official games. Like someone mentioned before, a trainer in X and Y references the 'Over 9000!' meme. Aside from this being a liiiiittle cringey (or honestly, quite a lot cringey), this sort of reference it fine. It's not in your face, it's just from one battle and not an important character, so it doesn't ruin your emersion or take you out of the moment. At best it will make the player giggle (or cringe a little) if they understand the reference, and at worst it will make the player say 'what?' and move on and forget about that weird dialogue. In short, meme responsibly!!

 

[Shgeldz]

1. Nothing political
2. Nothing that could be misconstrued as political or "edgy"
   1. I ran into a game where everything was all well and good, then someone made a tasteless joke about something, I believe it was poking fun of feminism, and it 1000000% turned me off the rest of the game in terms of enjoyment and more importantly immersion.
3. Nothing that is a reference for the sake of a reference itself, it should be for humor, or an eye roll even
4. If you have more than 1 meme per 4 hours in your game, rethink your life
   1. unless your game is a joke game. Then 1 meme per 4 mins is the gold standard
5. Subtle innuendo is fine occasionally, but toilet humor and sex jokes yank the player out of the world unless the game is entirely built around them.
6. Do what you want, it's your game.

 

[Dragonite]

Subtle innuendo is fine occasionally, but toilet humor and sex jokes yank the player out of the world unless the game is entirely built around them.

5b. Pokémon Uncensored had zero substance and should not be considered precedent to do the same thing.

 

[Evan]

5b. Pokémon Uncensored had zero substance and should not be considered precedent to do the same thing.

Yeah to point to the above, if you're going to do a joke/meme game, do it well. Forced jokes feel so weird. I can't exactly say the RIGHT way to do a joke/meme/whatever game, but it should look and feel as though thought was put into the experience (even if the end result is meant to feel like something "thrown together," do that right as well)

 

[Fontbane]

I can't exactly say the RIGHT way to do a joke/meme/whatever game

Yeah you can. "Pokémon Meat" :P
(I liked the old emojis better)
It's like the difference between South Park and Family Guy. South Park uses their crassness and references to highlight their humor, while Family Guy uses it as its only source of humor.

 

[Aki]

I don't even like memes...
As many people pointed out already, the meme needs to make sense. There's basically only three reactions a meme is going to get (1.Recognize the meme and think it's funny 2.Recognize the meme and think it's not funny 3.Don't recognize the meme ), but how often you choose to meme depends on the tone of your game.

The big problem I have with memes in fangames is that it's lazy; reference humor takes no effort to write.

 

[Shgeldz]

Yeah to point to the above, if you're going to do a joke/meme game, do it well. Forced jokes feel so weird. I can't exactly say the RIGHT way to do a joke/meme/whatever game, but it should look and feel as though thought was put into the experience (even if the end result is meant to feel like something "thrown together," do that right as well)

Ok so let's actually take Wet Moat as an example here.

There's actually very little "meme" involved in Wet Moat, albeit a fair chunk of the game is referential to the first game. But whenever whoever made the game used a "meme" they did so for a specific purpose, even in the original. John Cena music was used to elicit groans, it wasn't in there because it was inherently funny on its own. I've heard that the original plan for Wet Moat was to have a fair amount more memes, but the developers found they actually enjoyed writing their own original content as well.

Going through Wet Moat, the music may have some elements of "meme" but it is mostly there again, to provoke a specific response, mainly enthused annoyance.

Now, Wet Moat is FILLED with pop culture references, but frankly, the best jokes in the game don't always come from that genre of humor. In fact, my two favorite jokes, the titlescreen change and the "cancer" scene, are entirely original and are both appropriately surprising and lampooning respectively.

I think Aki makes a great point, but I think we can go broader to include all references.

1. Recognize the reference and react in the way the creator intended
2. Recognize the reference and not react/react in a way the creator had not intended
3. Don't recognize the reference.

I feel like if you're doing a reference, you'll need to do your best to put yourself in the shoes of a player, and do some cost benefit analysis. If you reference something really obscure, does the line still make sense? In that same thought, if you reference something obscure, is the "payoff" for players who get it rewarding enough to justify including it?

 

[Evan]

The big problem I have with memes in fangames is that it's lazy; reference humor takes no effort to write.

MOST reference humor takes no effort to write. Reference humor that can be incorporated that makes people smile, feel included, and gives an overall positive disposition toward the game--now that's rare indeed, but certainly takes loads of effort.

 

[Aki]

MOST reference humor takes no effort to write. Reference humor that can be incorporated that makes people smile, feel included, and gives an overall positive disposition toward the game--now that's rare indeed, but certainly takes loads of effort.

Off the top of my head I can't really think of a reference like that...but maybe I'm stuck on one-liners and characters. What kind of reference are you thinking of? An overarching plot parallel as a reference?

 

[Evan]

Off the top of my head I can't really think of a reference like that...but maybe I'm stuck on one-liners and characters. What kind of reference are you thinking of? An overarching plot parallel as a reference?

I can't think of a particularly good one either, but in theory, yes what you're saying. Or a character that's meant to invoke a specific childhood reference. Or even the etymology of Pokemon names (Moston, Mosachuset ;) )

 

[Darius_Oak]

(Moston, Mosachuset ;) )

It took me two weeks to work that one out. Please note my location tag.

 

[LeonDraceus]

Well, if you put them in your game, it will be interesting. But in the other hand, you have to be careful with political references. Well, for examples Pokemon Rainbow and Wet Moat did an awesome job!

 

[Djaco75]

I really like it when developers put references into their games. It shows they put lots of effort into the game development and it's also fun for the player to discover them. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Youngster with the 'shorts'. I feel like it's way too exaggerated. On the other hand, references like the ones put into popular shows on the link below are really cool.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_references_to_Pokémon_in_popular_culture